A friend of mine who has asked to remain anonymous due to reasons of employment, recently had a dialogue with the organizer of a local San Diego meet-up group called iSupport Marriage. The organizer is also a member of the well-known Rock Church led by Pastor Miles McPherson who is committed to sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of San Diego. The Rock Church also donated thousands of dollars to YES on Prop 8.Below is an interesting dialogue between my friend and a member of this church. I believe it began as a discussion on a message board and grew into something more, but I find it quite fascinating that two strangers have engaged in such a heated discussion.
My friend:
I'm all for free speech, which is exactly why I am here to express my opinion on an open blog forum. If you don't want people countering your opinionated ideas, then write a private journal. Really you are just preaching to people here, some of whom will listen, but disagree.
So it's ironic that you mention free speech, a civil right. Imagine if some people (specifically a slight 52% of people) decided that Asians could no longer have free speech, but it applies ONLY to Asians. I feel wrong just typing it because I believe in equal rights for all, but I am trying to give you some perspective that you lack. I am not trying to, as you say the ACLU says I am trying to, "push" my views on others. I just simply believe you do not know what you are doing (and I forgive you, Luke 23:34). You voted to protect a word, and it took rights away from people. That's wrong, can't you see it? No, and you never will. So yes, I am angry and using strong language to let you know that homosexuals are not going to let it go so easily. Give me my rights and I will leave you to live your "amazingly beautiful," yet righteous lifestyle where you judge others like me.
And it was YOU who spoke vulgarly about penises-in-anuses, I thank you for that visual BTW, and I did call you a bigot b/c Prop 8 breeds nothing but hate. You are shocked, mad, and defensive b/c I am trying to get you to call this measure what is really is: homophobia. What are you afraid of? Just think about how the wording for 8 was used to confuse people. A yes to restore marriage? What does that even mean? Why didn't they just call it the Anti-Gay Marriage act and be done with it. Sneaky and deceitful, typical of Christian conservatives. Additionally, I think the argument for my intolerance is rather weak. There are far more heterosexuals in the world; I laugh to think you think I don't accept them. Or is it your religion that you think I have an intolerance for? I like to live and let live. What's best for me may not be best for someone else, and who am I to tell people how to live? But when religious missionaries disturb my private life by knocking on my door to join their cause, I am angered. I am angered because I know these people do not accept a very small part of my nature that I cannot control. Yes, I am intolerant of these people, "pushing" their ideas on me. Religion is something you choose, if I was looking for guidance from that sector, I'd come find it. Being gay is my genes. If you took the time to understand anything about gay people, you'd know that. Gays do not walk around trying to make more gay people b/c we're educated enough to know that it doesn't work that way.
One final thing, do you really think any of the problems of our nation will be solved b/c gays can't marry? And further than that, how do you supposed things will worsen by gays getting married? Did the sky fall in the last 6 months here in California? No it didn't and it never will as long as we let freedom ring. You go ahead and try to silence our bell, but the world is changing. Get out of the new road if you can't lend a hand.
P.S. I go "patrolling" around for people like yourself b/c I don't seem to meet them in my day-to-day. Either I've surrounded myself with truly decent human beings or else everyone I know is lying to my face. The latter seems pretty unlikely, and I am 52% sure of that.
Jen, from The Rock Church:
You go out of your way intolerantly devoted to your opinion to treat the members of this i SupportMarriage who are doing nothing to you, with hatred and intolerance. You come here to call me a name that describes you because I'm practicing my free speech and opinion. You are such a predictable and typical liberal on anything that is different from you. Both sides hear about you all the time, you are not special and nothing new. Yes, you are nothing new.
How am I or we a bigot when we tolerate people like you all the time? I have not been mean to any of your supporters. We have been tolerant of these unions, have allowed them to exist, granted all the same rights, and have called them what they are: civil unions. It is a civil union with all the same rights as granted to married couples. There is nothing that prohibits civil unions in this Prop, no rights will be taken away and no rights are kept from them right now. Civil union couples have all the same rights as married people. Go find a withheld right... nothing
We tolerate gay lifestyles everyday. I don't email them "bigot." We don't go policing their bedrooms when they choose to have another man's penus in their rectum. Again, this Prop is not about rights. The only issue here is you and your supporters to want to rename a relationship defined as a civil union to what it is not. Say what you want but marriage has never been universally accepted as being between a man and a man and a woman and a woman so to call their union "marriage" under the definition of what it isn't is just inaccurate. Call an apple orange and it is still an apple so I prefer to call it an apple so there is no confusion between an orange.
The reality is that You are actually only fighting for social acceptance. Be real. That's what this is for you as already proven by both sides that it is not about equal rights. Even the gay agenda and the ACLU knows this and set limits on themselves and followers: http://www.aclu.org/p...
Your side's bigotry was only made more obvious by the unwillingness of the gay agenda to bring this on the ballot themselves and let the people choose, and instead, insist that the 4 judges impose it on the whole state. Where is the democracy in that? But you don't care, because the fact is, your side is the intolerant one. Our side actually has people speak for themselves by voting; once in Prop 22 and now Prop 8. So let the people of CA be heard and not be harassed by you. And since I had a ballot, I chose YES on 8. I won't email you if Yes on 8 passes to rub it in your face, though I can't say that about you if it goes to your favor.
People like me who fight for free speech allow everyone, including you, to voice your hate and intolerance towards me. You keep doing what you're doing and suppress it and soon you won't have free speech. Take courage in your freedom of speech that our country has availed to everyone here, including mines, and just vote on it.
Do as you please and it won't bother me a bit. You are not the boss of me, you don't know me and you are not the judge of me. Unfortunately, you have nothing better to do but make yourself feel better by going into a group's members list and call them what you are while my life is amazingly beautiful. What a life you must have. My gay friends think very little of people like you anyway. For you to do this only calls them to judge you on the standards you set for yourself. YOU ARE THE ACTUAL BIGOT!
You think you know me in one word by looking at my picture and membership on here. I am not judging you but merely stating my opinion and practicing my rights we all have. I can at least make a fair assessment based on your action. Yes on 8; that is free speech and leave me alone.
I hope that's enough to get you fired up. As you've probably heard by now, massive demonstrations are being organized for 10:30am PST/1:30pm EST this Saturday, November 15th at major city halls across the nation. To find the locations in your state, click here. I hope you will join the fight for marriage equality.
9 comments:
Wow. She actually believes that bullshit.
My favorite line: "have allowed them to exist"
You didn't "allow" me to do shit lady.
All or nothing.
Sadly, she thinks she is right because it's easier for her to be a parrot of her pastor than it is for her to show love. Jesus was all about LOVE and he spent a huge portion of his ministry trying to show the hypocrisy of the "religious" people who knew and obeyed the letter of the law, but rarely the spirit of the law.
As it is written in Ecclesiastes 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." There will always be people like this.
My favorite is this quote from Jen at Rock church:
"We don't go policing their bedrooms when they choose to have another man's penus in their rectum"
She doesn't know how to spell "penis?" She'd better be careful or someone is going to think she's a lesbian.
ha! highfives Jul; that's funny
I actually think, that the times have shifted enough that a great many of the people who voted for Prop 8 actually do favor equal civil rights for gays and lesbians. They just have a problem with the institution of "marriage: they confuse the religious meaning of the term with the clvil institution--even if they are not religious.
Of course, there are some who are just bigots and hateful--but by and large the perception has changed on the underlying rights.
Frankly, I would like the government to get out of the marriage business, and just issue domestic partnership licenses or whatever and then, if they wished, they could get the sacramental part done in the church of their choice. Of course, this would also require that all the benefits conferred on marital people by the government just be removed--and I think that is appropriate--marriage is a private contract and the government should not have anything to do with it. Married people should not have benefits that unhitched individuals do not.
But, it is only a matter of time, and not that much, perceptions on this whole issue are changing dramatically, and I expect gay marriage to be the law in the land much sooner than most people think.
~Becky
I agree 100% with Becky. Sooner rather than later. Still, 70% of black voters voted to support Prop 8 so that was a huge slap in the face to gays. You'd think that the long and painful fight for their own civil rights would make them sympathetic to our plight. What the hell?
Don't blame black voters. The "No on 8" campaign did a super-piss-poor job of reaching out to them. Blame old people and Mormons if you wanna get mad.
The PR firm for the campaign is here in Sac and was fired - they moved to another firm, also local - they both do issues PR, but they just didn't seem to understand what they had their hands on or how to deal with it all.
Had that been done right, the black voters and the Mormon money wouldn't have had a chance.
Did you see any clear, consistent messaging in their campaign? I didn't. They also didn't lasso ALL the competing organizations together to fight as one. Bad move.
OMG Don't even get me started on the problems with the "No on 8" campaign. They were turning away volunteers at their campaign office in West Hollywood, and the volunteers they did have spent their whole time calling other people to try to get them to volunteer. Those new volunteers would then come into the office to recruit new volunteers, and so on, until this huge pyramid was built of volunteers calling each other and never actually doing anything. And I could just puke watching all the "visibility" events they did in West Hollywood. What a damn waste of money.
Also, can I just add that I gave them a check for $25 in September that they just cashed **yesterday**??? Damn I hate them!!
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